Identity, psychedelics, genetic essentialism, and sleep culture with Dr. Benjamin Cheung

Audio

Nolan Yuma speaks with Dr. Benjamin Cheung, a leading expert in the fields of genetic essentialism, culture and sleep, and acculturation. Benjamin shares his cultural experience as a 1.5 generation Chinese Canadian and how parents of immigrant children can ease the acculturation process. Nolan and Ben also talk about how culture affects the outcomes of drug use, psychedelics, the 4-hour work week, and even how much sleep you need.

Video

00:00 Intro
01:34 - Generation 1.5 & Third culture kid experiences & parenting advice
17:35 - Cultural adjustment and acculturation strategies
18:37 - Identify & the authentic self
22:14 - Ego death & psychedelics
26:13 - Microdosing, drugs, and how culture & criminalisation affect their positive outcomes
33:24 - Genetic essentialism & how society influences depression
42:03 - How culture influences the 4-hour work week
44:33 - How culture influences how much sleep you need
58: 11 - Conclusion

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Transcript

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[Voices] Inescapably, inescapably, inescapably.</v>

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[Nolan] Inescapably, foreign. Welcome to Without Borders.</v>

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I'm your host, Nolan Yuma. Today I'm here with Professor Benjamin Chung.

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In fact, he was my professor of cultural psychology at UBC.

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So if you've tuned into the show before, you know,

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that means his lectures have influenced, well, pretty much everything I do here,

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[laughter] And I also had the honor of talking to Ben's colleague, Dr.

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Steven Heine, where we talk about self-esteem, culture, and uh,

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culture and morality. So please make sure to check out that episode as well.

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That's episode 18. Uh, we might bring up some of those topics again today,

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but I'm especially interested in learning about Ben's expertise,

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which is genetic essentialism culture and sleep,

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and the most talked about topic on my show acculturation. Uh, first off, Ben,

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how are you doing today?

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[Ben] I'm doing great. I'm excited to do this. Thanks. How are you doing?</v>

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[Nolan] Uh, well, I'm excited to have you here. It's been a long time. Um,</v>

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you probably don't know how much of an influence you had on me, actually,

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but [laughter], it's, uh,

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I go through your lecture notes probably once a week for preparing for these,

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uh, [laughter] interviews, and [Ben] That’s great. [Nolan] Yeah. Um,

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so now before we get into all of your research, um,

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I wanna get a little bit into, to your story,

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because you refer to yourself as a 1.5 generation Chinese

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Canadian. Yeah. As,

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can you tell us a little bit more about what you mean by that?

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[Ben] Yeah. So when we talk about, you know, first generation, second generation,</v>

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first generation is referring to someone who is, you know,

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born in the place that they are, that they were growing up in.

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So when we talk about a first generation immigrant, uh, sorry,

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not born in the place, they,

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they moved to the place that they were growing up in now.

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So a first generation is usually someone who has, let's say, moved from in,

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in, in my parents' case, for example, from Hong Kong to, to, to Vancouver.

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Second generation is someone who is born there. Uh,

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and then it's more of a sociological term using the term 1.5

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generation. 1.5 generation is that generation is sort of in between, uh,

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where in our first generation,

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we're now thinking of more in terms of like adults, you know,

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people who moved in adulthood who've already more or less created their

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culture identity, uh, prior to moving.

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And then you have the second generation that grew up in that new place,

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uh, and was sort of expecting to develop more of a,

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a mainstream kind of culture identity.

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The 1.5 is sort of that group where we're in between, we move as kids,

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and so we have quite a bit of the heritage,

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uh, culture identity, but we also mix in a lot of that, that,

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that, that new mainstream, uh, culture identity as well.

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It's not to say the second generation, uh, doesn't, uh,

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retain any heritage culture identity. Certainly it does a lot.

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And a lot of students that I talk, that I talk to now, uh,

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certainly have that kind of talk a lot,

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a lot about being in that liminal space between heritage culture and,

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and mainstream culture. Uh, but yeah,

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1.5 is just to denote that sure,

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we are technically first, uh, uh, yeah, first generation immigrants,

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but we're also qualitatively,

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we have very different experiences compared to other first generation,

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uh, immigrants who move as adults.

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[Nolan] And I remember learning about that all in your class.</v>

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And I remember when I first learned the term third culture kid. Yeah. Uh,

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I never heard it before. And then I was like, holy shit, this is me [laughter].

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Yeah. And then we, we would go through all the,

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the symptoms or just the, the things, the characteristics,

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and it was just spot on from my experience. Yeah. And for me,

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it helped. I, I went to UBC a little when I was a little bit older.

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I didn't go when I was 18, so I, I had a little bit more experience.

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But even then, I was still having some identity issues.

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And I think even now as an adult, I do to, to a certain extent. Um,

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but it definitely isn't,

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as they describe third culture kids in the textbook and what I experienced when

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I was younger. Um, and everything we learned in the class,

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just having that theoretical knowledge kind of helped me to understand

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myself. And I'm just wondering for you, like,

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I'm, I'm assuming from all the knowledge that you have, um,

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it probably made you a little bit less confused over time,

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or am I wrong in assuming that.

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[Ben] Uh, you mean in terms of my culture identity?</v>

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[Nolan] Yeah. Like, just, just from all your studies,</v>

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did it start to make you a little bit more aware of why you're acting this

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certain way? Or maybe why you were confused at certain periods of your life?

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Did it clear anything up for you? Yeah.

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[Ben] And I, I think, uh, uh, I think</v>

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one thing that I'll say is that from my

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experience growing up in Vancouver,

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I think because the area that I lived in, uh,

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had such a strong, um,

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immigrant culture and immigrant influence,

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and the area that I grew up in had a lot of, uh,

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south Asians and East Asian immigrants and immigrant children.

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[Nolan] Which area there? 

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[Ben] uh, I was in so like South Vancouver, south Vancouver,

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Marol area in Vancouver.

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[Nolan] Okay.</v>

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[Ben] Um, and that area, yeah, that area is very diverse. Uh, that's close,</v>

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very close to what people colloquially refer to as the Punjab market,

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um, around Main Street and Fraser Street. And I was closer to,

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I was just on the west side of, of, of all of that. And it was, I, I,

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I think that was actually really helpful for me because I was able to,

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uh, develop a cultural identity that felt, uh,

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genuine and authentic to both my cultural experiences

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as a, as an immigrant child, uh,

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having sort of the everyday influences of mainstream culture as well.

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And that's a very different experience, you know,

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compared to what a lot of my other students who, uh, who,

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who grew up as Asian immigrant children,

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whether first 1.5 generation or second generation or, or beyond.

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And then having grown up in a much less diverse, uh

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kind of area,

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that creates a lot more confusion for them because then they don't

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know how to handle the stark contrast between

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school culture, school environment, and home culture and home environment.

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So for me, um,

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I think the area that I lived in was a big

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advantage for me, uh,

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in not having to feel that kind of identity confusion growing up.

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I mean, there were always going to be some,

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just because mainstream society has encourages,

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uh,

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has and encourages different kinds of cultural values and behaviors and such

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compared to what people might do in the home. Uh, but, um,

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yeah, that, that really helps. But if you're asking,

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you're asking about whether or not the knowledge that I've gained has helped

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with that. Uh, I think if anything, it, uh, it just,

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it helps me have the language to parse through

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and to articulate the kinds of experiences that I've had,

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the kinds of observations that I've made. Uh, I think it has, I think it helps,

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especially people who

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haven't been able to think about these things before. Um,

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and I think it helps people, uh, who, uh,

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might have had more difficult experiences and more difficult, uh,

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identity confusions and conflicts growing up to navigate that

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kind of space.

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[Nolan] So what are — I know it, it varies quite a bit,</v>

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but what are some of the tools that you could bring up right now for this

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adaptation period? Or whether,

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whether there is a more sensitive period for cultural adaptation? Um,

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if there are any general strategies for people, um, and cultures that,

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that want to adapt. And again, like I, on this show,

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I always begin it by saying is for immigrants, refugees, expats,

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or anyone else that feels inescapably foreign because sometimes people who,

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who haven't lived in a different country,

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but their parents come from a different country and they have a completely

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different value system. They come from a different culture.

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They also have to tackle 

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this feeling foreign in a way. Yeah. Um, so what,

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what kind of strategies come out, come out right away? Like,

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what are some of the main ones?

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[Ben] You know, it's really hard to do this.</v>

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It's really hard to enact any of these things when you're in the adjustment

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period,

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because that adjustment period is oftentimes when people are quite a bit

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younger like early teens, mid-teens, kind of,

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kind of period. Uh, is is when,

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well really anytime from birth to like mid-teens is when people are most

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sensitive to their cultural environment. And so, uh, it's,

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it's kind of hard, you know, for, for us to say, well,

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kids should be doing this to, to, to maximally adjust.

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I think kids will just naturally, um,

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naturally absorb what is in their environment. 

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What becomes a bigger issue is I think how parents are handling that process.

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And I think the parents are oftentimes a primary factor for how successfully the

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children are able to navigate that difficult kind of, um, uh,

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both period in their lives as well as a difficult cultural,

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uh, situation for them.

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And I say that because I think oftentimes and especially immigrant parents,

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uh, aren't prepared to have these kinds of conversations with their children

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about cultural disparities and cultural conflicts and,

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and having different cultural identities because they haven't had to deal with

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that themselves oftentimes, right? 

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And so how do you have that conversation about something that you yourself

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haven't had experience with, or you yourself might not understand? Uh,

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and, and so I think a lot of it doesn't,

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it doesn't naturally fall onto the shoulders of the children who are trying to

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navigate that cultural space. It actually falls on the parents who are,

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uh, you know, a lot of children will often will often say, you know,

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I didn't ask to come here. Uh, which is true, you know,

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it's the parents who would've done all that preparation work or that legwork

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ahead of time to go, okay, I,

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we are gonna do this to prepare for us moving there.

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But that's mostly in terms of like,

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let's figure out what school the kid is gonna go to,

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or what kind of jobs we're gonna get once we get there, or what kind of,

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how home we're gonna live in once we arrive. But, you know,

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the children don't have any kind of say in this, right?

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Whether they are children who are moving as 1.5 generation or children who are

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not even born, and then they will be born in that new cultural space,

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there's not much for them to do,

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cuz all they're trying to do is to just grow up, right? 

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uh, I think ultimately it comes down to the parents and have the parents be more

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educated and more aware about how to have these conversations and to maybe

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connect with other parents who've gone through a similar process to, to,

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to think about how to best support the children's,

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uh, cultural identity and culture development.

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How to have those difficult conversations about, you know,

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what happens when children say, uh, to their parents, you know, I need,

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I want you to stop bringing, making me bring,

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uh, uh,

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paneer to school because the kids are making fun of me for

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the smell that it has or whatever. Um, and that still happens quite a bit.

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So my students even now talk about how they've had to endure that. Uh,

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and so how do you, how do parents,

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how those conversations so that they can help their children develop

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a,

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a healthy kind of cultural identity that is representative of the

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cultural mixing that's in their environment growing up.

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[Nolan] Yeah. I,</v>

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I think it must be so difficult for parents because I think my parents did an

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excellent job in many ways, but I got bullied as shit ton when I was younger.

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Um, it is also, this was, I grew up in a small town,

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so this was before Nuttella became a popular thing,

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so they were shit sandwiches. Uh, anyways,

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I've gone over those stories on the show before, so I won't,

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I won't get into it again. Um, but it's,

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so I think it must be so difficult to find this balance where you want your

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child to be proud of their cultural heritage,

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but you also don't want it to clash with the culture that

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they're in. And it's like finding that balance that could be very difficult.

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[Ben] Yeah. You know, for a lot of parents,</v>

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I think you'll find that their [laughter], their,

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their primary objective is to make sure that their kids don't forget

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their heritage culture. And I think in many cases, um,

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they don't want their kids. It's, it's a very weird dynamic where, you know,

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parents take their kids to this new place,

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but then also don't want their kids to be like the people who are from that new

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place, [laughter]Yeah. And, and I, I find that to be highly unrealistic. And I,

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I I, and this is why I, again,

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I place a lot of that responsibility on the parents that you,

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you need to, you need to prepare yourself for these expectations, right?

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That you need to expect that your child is going to develop in a very different

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way culturally from what you might have been used to, uh,

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growing up in the heritage space. And, uh, yeah.

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[Nolan] Have you noticed that, uh, from, from what third culture kids report,</v>

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um, that they need to lie more? I was lucky that my,

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that was my dad's number one rule. He's like, you can do anything. Like,

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he knows, he knows all my party stories, he knows all the bad things I've done.

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Number one was like, you never lie to me. But when I talk to some other,

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um, uh, kids or now adults that are in a similar situation, then as me,

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they had to grow up lying to their parents because the things that

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their parents said were wrong, were accepted with their friends.

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And if they told their parents the truth, uh, [laughter],

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they could get beat in some cases or just, just get scolded. Right? 

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[Ben] Yeah. Uh, I think it, I think this is, this,</v>

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this certainly transcends what, you know,

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whether someone is their culture or, or, or, or, or, or immigrant kids.

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I think in general, you know,

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when you have parents that tend to be more harsh in their parenting,

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um,

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and tend to be much more sort of authoritarian in how they parent their kids,

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uh, it, it,

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it compels the child to do what they can to avoid punishment.

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Right? And so then you do get a lot of that deception.

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You do get a lot of that lying. Uh, and,

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and yeah, you sometimes will see, we, and and I,

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I will say that this happens quite a lot with immigrant parents because

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a lot of immigrant parents come from, uh,

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I'm thinking in particular about Asian parents who come from a lot of cultures

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that where there's a lot more sort of,

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you might see a lot more parental surveillance of children's behaviors,

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a lot more sort of helicoptering of parents, uh, of, of their children.

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Uh, and sometimes the use of corporal punishment is also very common in,

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in, in some, uh, parenting spaces in

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Asian amongst Asian immigrant, uh, parents too.

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And so I think that kind of parenting often leads,

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uh, kids to develop this tendency of, okay, you know,

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I want to do this thing that everyone else is doing,

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but they're not letting me do it, so I'm gonna do it in secret. 

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Because they're gonna do it anyway. Uh, so it's, it's,

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it, it's it's counterproductive. Uh,

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I think that's why in a lot of cases,

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parents end up having a very unrealistic and,

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um,

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inaccurate mental procession of what their kids are like

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and what their kids are actually doing. Totally.

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[Nolan] Definitely. So any parents listening to this show right now? Keep that in mind,</v>

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[laughter]Um,

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and what about for strategies for adults who are adjusting to a new

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culture?

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Because sometimes when I talk to people who moved to a new country in their

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twenties, and they spent the majority of their adult life in a new, new country,

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they also have a lot of the same struggles as I did,

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or sometimes a lot of the same benefits, right? They're able to, um,

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they're more like chameleons. They're able to adapt in different situations,

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but they definitely deal with this, oh, I'm, I'm becoming,

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or I'm, I'm finding a new side of myself.

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And then they start to struggle with this identity. So what,

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what kind of strategies do adults have?

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[Ben] I think the biggest thing is to understand that identities will change over</v>

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time, right? Uh, and we,

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we sometimes will talk in terms of studying identity and the formation of

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identity,

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just because we've formed an identity and we've achieved an identity after our

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adolescents or early or, or like early adulthood,

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it doesn't mean that that identity doesn't, doesn't change over time either.

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uh, you know,

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I think the healthiest thing for people to do is even if they've achieved a

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certain kind of identity,

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that they're still willing to be open to the idea that they can explore new

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things and how their identities can continue to change moving into the future.

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Now, the way that our id our identities develop oftentimes as a function of our,

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our environment, right? What, what do we, what kinds of, of,

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of,

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of possibilities do we see for ourselves in terms of in what directions can

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our, can our identities develop? Um, and when we go to a new place,

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we can potentially see new ways, right?

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New avenues in which our identities can develop and change.

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And so I think a big part of it is not being,

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uh, not being worried or scared that, oh,

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I think I'm changing into a different person. You know,

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as long as you're not doing terrible things as a, as a new, as a new identity.

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So, yeah.

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[Nolan] How, how would you define the authentic self?</v>

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Because that's where sometimes you get in a little bit of a discussion here,

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it's like, oh, well, if you're changing and adapting,

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you're not being authentic. And that's, yeah.

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Kinda like what Carl Rodgers would emphasize, right? Yeah.

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The importance of having this stable core self,

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that that stays the same in place to place.

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And then you had Gergen and the postmodern writers who emphasized the importance

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of having these different identities. What to you is,

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is an authentic self then?

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[Ben] So, I, I don't believe that there is,</v>

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there is like one single authentic self that is stable with you for the

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entirety of your life. I think for some people, that's certainly the case.

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And so it's easy to talk about that as being the authentic self,

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especially for people who really only grow up in one place and only

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know that environment and so has developed an identity that

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works for them in that environment. So that, that's,

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that's easy to say that that's your authentic self. Uh,

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and sometimes, uh, sometimes that authentic self might,

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I've, no, people don't generally change drastically. I'm not saying that they,

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they necessarily do that, uh,

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but that people might add on things to their identities,

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or there might be slight shifts in their identities over time as they get older.

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Like, you'll have people who might have been very, um, very,

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very congenial when they're a little younger or very patient, but,

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uh, over as they get, as they get older, they just,

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they don't want to take shit from it from people anymore. 

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and they become a little more cantankerous. Uh,

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and it doesn't mean that they're no longer authentic.

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They are authentic because they, uh,

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that that's just how they've come to develop over time because of maybe changes

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in their circumstance or changes in how they're processing, uh,

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their philosophy in, in life. So, uh, I I,

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there might be this idea of an authentic self.

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I don't believe that that has to be this perpetually

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stable constellation of things, uh, that,

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that never changes. Cause I don't, I don't believe that that's the case.

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[Nolan] I agree. And I don't even think it's possible in many cases.</v>

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[Ben] [laughter]Yeah. I agree. I agree. .</v>

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[Nolan] Uh, um, and then, uh, what about,</v>

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um, the ego death,

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like this complete loss of subjective self-identity?

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People talk about that, and I'm wondering what you think about it,

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because sometimes I relate this feeling of ego death

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to some of the indigenous writers,

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and when they talk about the mystical and some of these mystical experiences,

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I'll, I'll, I'll get into it a little bit um,

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a little bit more later as to why I kind of connect these two.

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But I'm just thinking, fir, first of all, what,

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what do you think about this idea of ego death?

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Is this something that people should strive towards?

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You think it could be beneficial, it could be harmful.

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[Ben] Sir, I'm less familiar with, with the idea of ego death.</v>

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Can you talk a bit more about that.

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[Nolan] It relates to this idea of this, like,</v>

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some complete loss of subjective self-identity?

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Um, and Well, I mean, that's what I know about it.

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And to me, I think it's this,

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this feeling where you don't feel separate

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from anything else, possibly. Right? You just,

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you're so in the moment that you're not, uh,

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you don't have any judgements about others in that moment,

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you might not have any judgements about yourself. Um,

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now that's how I kind of understand it. I might be wrong about this, but that,

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that's kind of how I understand it.

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[Ben] Okay. It sounds, it's sounding a little to me, like, uh, uh,</v>

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someone who's on psychedelics, and.

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[Nolan] Uh, that was gonna be my connection a little later, actually. [laughter],</v>

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I was gonna bring that up.

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[Ben] Yeah. It sounds little like someone on psychedelics said, I mean, I, I have,</v>

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I I don't think that's a, I don't think that's a bad thing. Um,

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I think that the reason why, for example,

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microdosing psilocybin

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and other kinds of psychedelics are beneficial for people is because it

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does allow them to relieve. Because when you're, when people are, so,

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I think when people are so conscious of everything, um,

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it creates the problem that they become,

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especially in the modern world. Uh,

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they become worried and concerned about everything,

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and they're cre it creates a lot of anxieties that they have about everything.

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But sort of just losing yourself and losing everything that you are

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concerned about and just sort of being connected with everything, and from,

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by all the reports of people who, uh, use psychedelics and,

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and the similar substances and people who use, who, who engage in microdosing,

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uh, it's,

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it's a hugely beneficial process for them that is very effective at,

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at alleviating anxiety, effective at alleviating depression.

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And so, I think to that extent, that kind of experience is,

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has a net positive, uh, for, for folks.

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[Nolan] Now, for me, uh, psychedelics have had a positive effect,</v>

401

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positive effect on my life, both when it comes to anxiety and depression,

402

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and then just having fun as well. Yeah. I'll be honest about that. Yeah. Um,

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and I think it made me a better person in many ways.

404

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It makes me more empathetic,

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makes me connect to nature and have a better understanding of our connection to

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nature. Also, a deeper understanding of,

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that's why I brought up the indigenous writings when they talk about this

408

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spirit in nature. And yeah, I mean, I'm not a religious person,

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but I feel sometimes the spirit in the nature,

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and I understand those texts on such a deeper level. Um,

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but then I was thinking about like Michael Pollan and how the,

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the book and now the, the Netflix series, how to Change Your Mind.

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I'm a huge fan of it, and I,

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I agree with a lot of the things that are presented in the book,

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but it's quite anecdotal, and a lot of the people there are westerners.

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And I was wondering about that because I live in Spain right now,

417

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and the whole microdosing thing, very west Coast, I think,

418

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like yeah. When I go back to Vancouver, everybody's microdosing.

419

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Everyone's got their little mushrooms, everyone's got their gummies. [laughter].

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I come back here if I bring it up, like, and I,

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I try and have a serious conversation like, oh, this could be beneficial.

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They just, like, they think I'm some hippie. They think it's, they like,

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they don't even wanna read the research. Yeah. And I'm wondering,

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in those cases, would it be beneficial for them or would it be,

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would it have more of a negative outcome because they weren't raised in this

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culture where it's more accepted? I mean,

427

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it's only recently that microdosing has become so accepted on the west coast.

428

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Yeah. Um, but still, I wonder if it's having a more beneficial, um,

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more beneficial outcome because people are part of this culture.

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[Ben] I think when there is a culture that's supportive of the use of that kind of</v>

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substance, uh, that's,

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that is important for predicting, I think,

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better outcomes from using that substance. Right? So for example, uh,

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we're thinking about the high,

435

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the high level of criminalization of various other forms of, of, of, of,

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uh, drugs and narcotics. And I'm thinking about in the context of,

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I say North America, there's really, um, uh, there's a really,

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it, we're now developing a much more tolerant, much more accepting, uh,

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culture around marijuana use and  you know,

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where I'm also thinking about things like cocaine and thinking about how

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indigenous people in South America had been people,

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specific people in, in, uh,

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indigenous people in South America had historically and traditionally been using

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Coca leaves from which cocaine has derived, uh, for

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a long time, uh,

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without the same kinds of social ills and, and, and,

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and problematic social effects. 

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associated with using that kind of substance.

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So I think a lot of it comes down to, uh, you know, how does,

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so how should I say this?

451

00:28:25.750 --> 00:28:29.030

I think there's a net benefit to using these kinds of substances, right?

452

00:28:29.090 --> 00:28:33.990

As long as there's a good culture that surrounds the use of that substance

453

00:28:34.250 --> 00:28:36.790

and a culture, that good culture that, that,

454

00:28:36.790 --> 00:28:40.270

that supports that kind of substance. When there isn't,

455

00:28:40.770 --> 00:28:45.630

and there is huge criminalization of that kind of behavior and huge

456

00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:49.110

stigma associated with that kind of behavior, uh,

457

00:28:49.260 --> 00:28:52.550

then it becomes a net negative, uh,

458

00:28:52.940 --> 00:28:57.750

because then you have people who are being stigmatized as people

459

00:28:57.810 --> 00:28:59.830

who use these substances. Uh,

460

00:28:59.830 --> 00:29:03.710

you have people who are being pushed into the peripheries of society for using

461

00:29:03.710 --> 00:29:05.670

these substances. Uh,

462

00:29:06.010 --> 00:29:09.210

and especially when they,

463

00:29:09.360 --> 00:29:12.890

when you have people who are using it, you know,

464

00:29:12.890 --> 00:29:16.090

specifically to try to cope with mental illnesses,

465

00:29:16.510 --> 00:29:18.450

to try to cope with mental health problems.

466

00:29:18.830 --> 00:29:22.250

And there isn't enough support for people who are dealing with those kinds of

467

00:29:22.250 --> 00:29:25.690

issues, especially, they're very severe, and they,

468

00:29:25.750 --> 00:29:27.770

so there's not enough social resources for them,

469

00:29:28.230 --> 00:29:32.530

and there's being stigmatized and they're being criminalized for doing this.

470

00:29:32.790 --> 00:29:35.810

The, the one thing that it seems to be helping them deal with their, their,

471

00:29:35.810 --> 00:29:39.170

their mental illnesses and traumas, uh, then it becomes problematic.

472

00:29:39.550 --> 00:29:43.480

So if you're talking about, uh, having conversations with people in,

473

00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:46.760

let's say Spain and, and, and you're talking about, let's,

474

00:29:46.760 --> 00:29:50.520

let's try out some psilocybin or some, some, some kind of psychedelic,

475

00:29:51.510 --> 00:29:52.910

I think how effective it,

476

00:29:53.710 --> 00:29:58.130

how well it's going to go for them will depend on,

477

00:29:59.030 --> 00:30:03.130

uh, whether or not there is enough acceptance within society,

478

00:30:04.230 --> 00:30:08.210

uh, whether or not they're going to get, um,

479

00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:13.450

because you can, you can, I can imagine someone getting momentary relief,

480

00:30:14.630 --> 00:30:17.370

uh, from whatever anxieties they might be dealing with,

481

00:30:17.950 --> 00:30:21.450

but then they lose their job, uh, and then the [laughter].

482

00:30:22.310 --> 00:30:24.010

And so then, so as a,

483

00:30:24.070 --> 00:30:28.170

as a net benefit or as a net calculus of, of,

484

00:30:28.230 --> 00:30:33.050

of benefits and cost that I think the cost would win out, uh, in, in,

485

00:30:33.050 --> 00:30:33.883

in that sense.

486

00:30:34.150 --> 00:30:36.730

[Nolan] Uh, I'm glad you explained it also thoroughly,</v>

487

00:30:36.730 --> 00:30:40.170

cuz it's something that I was thinking about, especially after that,

488

00:30:40.170 --> 00:30:43.810

that Michael Poland video, because now because of Netflix,

489

00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:48.050

that video just gets out there within all these different cultures.

490

00:30:48.070 --> 00:30:49.450

And in a way that's a good thing. Like,

491

00:30:49.490 --> 00:30:51.890

I hope that helps some of the other cultures become a little bit more

492

00:30:51.890 --> 00:30:53.890

open-minded to it. But on the other side,

493

00:30:53.970 --> 00:30:57.890

I was a little bit worried about people that might go out and do it. Um,

494

00:30:57.890 --> 00:30:59.330

and then they hear about like, okay,

495

00:30:59.470 --> 00:31:04.330

one trip and eight months of long lasting positive effects. And it's like, well,

496

00:31:04.560 --> 00:31:06.810

that depends on the environment 

497

00:31:06.810 --> 00:31:09.530

[Ben] Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, and, uh, and,</v>

498

00:31:09.550 --> 00:31:14.250

and there are places where using drugs can be a long

499

00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:18.770

time prison sentence. Uh, and you know, it,

500

00:31:19.840 --> 00:31:24.660

the whatever momentary euphoria one might derive from using that substance,

501

00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:28.220

if you're in that space, uh, that's, uh,

502

00:31:29.220 --> 00:31:32.180

terrible things are gonna happen to you. Uh, you know, we're talking about,

503

00:31:32.180 --> 00:31:34.860

let's say a place like Singapore where there are really,

504

00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:39.900

really strict substance laws. Uh, you could be hanged,

505

00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:43.660

you can be caned, uh, really, really,

506

00:31:45.670 --> 00:31:45.890

uh,

507

00:31:45.890 --> 00:31:50.850

traumatic kinds of physical punishment on individuals for being associated

508

00:31:50.850 --> 00:31:54.690

with substances and drugs. Yeah. I, I, I,

509

00:31:54.970 --> 00:31:56.290

I think there's a,

510

00:31:56.970 --> 00:32:01.790

a responsibility on individuals then to think about if they were to use this,

511

00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:05.550

what are the social consequences, um, as well,

512

00:32:05.650 --> 00:32:08.590

not just thinking about what kind of benefits they get. Um,

513

00:32:08.590 --> 00:32:12.550

and this is not to place the responsibilities solely on individuals, uh,

514

00:32:12.550 --> 00:32:16.110

because I think culture should be, I my ideal,

515

00:32:16.110 --> 00:32:18.310

and this is just me speaking as an individual person.

516

00:32:19.150 --> 00:32:23.310

I would hope to see more cultures be more open to,

517

00:32:24.210 --> 00:32:28.830

um, sort of a more, uh, responsible strategy,

518

00:32:29.300 --> 00:32:34.030

responsible policies towards, uh, substance use,

519

00:32:34.610 --> 00:32:39.020

uh, as opposed to just wholesale criminalizing everything.

520

00:32:39.190 --> 00:32:44.040

Because criminalizing, uh, the use of substances only makes a problem worse.

521

00:32:44.780 --> 00:32:48.400

Uh, yeah. And we've seen that already through the prohibition.

522

00:32:48.890 --> 00:32:53.520

We're seeing that now through, uh, you know, the, the, the overdose,

523

00:32:53.980 --> 00:32:58.720

uh, crises in Vermont, in British Columbia,

524

00:32:59.260 --> 00:33:04.080

in a lot of places. Um, yeah. And I, I, I, I,

525

00:33:05.060 --> 00:33:08.400

and, and, and so in some ways it's not up to the individual, uh,

526

00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:11.200

but it is up to the individual to be aware that yeah,

527

00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:12.160

these are the consequences.

528

00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:15.800

[Nolan] I completely co completely agree with you. I thought it was,</v>

529

00:33:15.940 --> 00:33:18.840

I'd like to play the devil's advocate on the show just to get a conversation

530

00:33:18.970 --> 00:33:22.640

going, but here I just can't, it was just ingrained here.

531

00:33:23.150 --> 00:33:23.983

[Ben] Yeah.</v>

532

00:33:24.180 --> 00:33:29.120

[Nolan] Um, but all this also relates to genetic essentialism in a way. Um,</v>

533

00:33:29.120 --> 00:33:31.320

especially when we're talking about depression.

534

00:33:31.540 --> 00:33:36.440

And I think one problem that we have in society is that this idea

535

00:33:36.630 --> 00:33:41.480

that depression is genetic, which it can be in, in some ways, right?

536

00:33:41.540 --> 00:33:45.000

But then it kind of leads to this fatalistic view where it's like, oh,

537

00:33:45.390 --> 00:33:48.120

it's in my genes. I am a depressed person,

538

00:33:48.660 --> 00:33:50.880

and now I need to take [laughter],

539

00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:55.040

let's just say the American cocktail of all these prescription drugs. And like,

540

00:33:55.350 --> 00:33:59.600

this is the way that I have to solve it. And then well, one solution. Yeah.

541

00:33:59.600 --> 00:34:02.080

We were talking about the, the psychedelics,

542

00:34:02.340 --> 00:34:07.200

but I think an even more important one is the social aspect, right?

543

00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:10.240

Like a big part of depression, childhood trauma,

544

00:34:10.380 --> 00:34:14.480

or just in your adult life, if you're not, if you don't have good social bonds.

545

00:34:14.980 --> 00:34:19.890

And there's just so much research that points to that. Um,

546

00:34:20.150 --> 00:34:24.050

so that, that is one example I think where we can talk about how your,

547

00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:29.090

your genes don't influence necessarily the outcome, right?

548

00:34:29.090 --> 00:34:33.890

There is so much that you can do to, to change, um, how you feel,

549

00:34:34.030 --> 00:34:34.863

how you think.

550

00:34:35.290 --> 00:34:38.970

I was wondering if you could bring up some other examples from your research

551

00:34:39.160 --> 00:34:41.330

with genetic essential essentialism,

552

00:34:41.710 --> 00:34:45.570

and especially when it comes to kind of getting rid of some of these fatalistic

553

00:34:45.860 --> 00:34:47.290

views that some people might have.

554

00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:49.610

[Ben] Yeah. You know, one thing I'll, I'll,</v>

555

00:34:49.610 --> 00:34:53.890

I'll start off by is talking about how there's such quite a bit of research. Um,

556

00:34:54.270 --> 00:34:59.050

I'm thinking there's a faculty member, uh, by the name of Joe Fallen,

557

00:34:59.630 --> 00:35:03.370

and she's done a, a really, really cool work on, uh,

558

00:35:03.470 --> 00:35:07.570

how people perceive folks with mental illnesses,

559

00:35:08.470 --> 00:35:09.160

uh,

560

00:35:09.160 --> 00:35:14.050

depending on whether the condition is described as having

561

00:35:14.080 --> 00:35:17.890

some sort of genetic basis or not. And generally, when people think that some,

562

00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:21.850

some sort of mental illness is associated more with, uh, with,

563

00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:25.080

with excuse, with genetic, uh,

564

00:35:25.080 --> 00:35:27.040

dispositions or genetic foundations,

565

00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:32.560

they tend to perceive those kinds of mental illnesses as being more severe,

566

00:35:32.910 --> 00:35:37.760

more serious. And, uh, they are al they also often will report,

567

00:35:38.500 --> 00:35:42.840

uh, being less willing to engage with, uh, with,

568

00:35:42.870 --> 00:35:46.090

with those folks as well. Um,

569

00:35:47.030 --> 00:35:51.690

and that's unfortunate cuz then that, that exacerbates the problem, right?

570

00:35:51.690 --> 00:35:56.250

Because if someone has, let's say depression, uh, and you think, oh,

571

00:35:56.250 --> 00:35:57.290

that person, you know,

572

00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:01.730

they have this family history of depression and it must be genetic,

573

00:36:02.230 --> 00:36:06.170

you know, let's, let's, you know, and and I I, it's difficult for them to,

574

00:36:06.230 --> 00:36:09.250

and they all, they also expect, uh,

575

00:36:09.250 --> 00:36:11.050

they're more pessimistic about the prognosis.

576

00:36:11.560 --> 00:36:16.450

They don't expect it to get better that easily. And so then they worry about,

577

00:36:16.510 --> 00:36:18.650

oh, you know, then I, I, you know, I'm,

578

00:36:18.650 --> 00:36:21.410

I'm not gonna be able to talk to them because, you know, how can I,

579

00:36:21.950 --> 00:36:24.290

I'm not gonna be able to fix their depression. And so I,

580

00:36:24.370 --> 00:36:26.610

I don't want to associate with, I don't wanna socialize with them.

581

00:36:27.030 --> 00:36:29.690

And then from the perspective of the person with the depression,

582

00:36:30.160 --> 00:36:35.090

that that kind of sucks cuz then they have the depression plus no one

583

00:36:35.090 --> 00:36:38.690

to talk to. Yeah. Uh, and then that sort of creates,

584

00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:43.210

perpetuates the self-fulfilling prophecy of well then their depression never

585

00:36:43.210 --> 00:36:47.050

gets better. Um, and so that's, that's, that's hugely problematic and,

586

00:36:47.070 --> 00:36:49.650

and unfortunate that that happens. Uh,

587

00:36:50.430 --> 00:36:54.570

but we also know that there are, I mean, one,

588

00:36:54.810 --> 00:36:56.650

a lot of things are, are,

589

00:36:56.650 --> 00:37:00.450

are structural people are depressed and anxious because of structural things

590

00:37:00.560 --> 00:37:04.930

because of, of, of, um, a demanding work,

591

00:37:05.590 --> 00:37:06.730

uh, uh,

592

00:37:06.730 --> 00:37:11.290

culture in their environment that does not allow them to have

593

00:37:11.640 --> 00:37:14.690

good socialization experiences. Um,

594

00:37:15.190 --> 00:37:18.730

and a terrible work-life balance is also a huge predictor of that.

595

00:37:18.750 --> 00:37:20.210

And we know now that there's,

596

00:37:20.210 --> 00:37:24.970

there's enough research now that I'm pretty confident to say that reducing the

597

00:37:24.970 --> 00:37:29.810

workday number of workdays in a week will massively help with this

598

00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:33.050

kind of situation with people's mental health. Um,

599

00:37:33.150 --> 00:37:37.330

and there's been multiple studies showing similar findings of people reporting

600

00:37:37.330 --> 00:37:42.290

significant increases in wellbeing by moving to a four day work week

601

00:37:42.290 --> 00:37:43.850

instead of a five day work week.

602

00:37:44.040 --> 00:37:47.890

Even having that one day extra day off seems to be making a huge difference.

603

00:37:47.890 --> 00:37:50.130

And I know that for me, um,

604

00:37:51.350 --> 00:37:56.120

it's been hugely beneficial where I have one day where I'm working from home and

605

00:37:56.270 --> 00:37:58.480

I'll have a lot more freedom to,

606

00:37:58.820 --> 00:38:02.080

to work or not work during that

607

00:38:02.120 --> 00:38:05.040

one day in the middle of the week, it's been so beneficial for me.

608

00:38:05.660 --> 00:38:10.000

Uh, and so beneficial for my mental health too. Uh, but, uh,

609

00:38:10.180 --> 00:38:14.040

so there's, there's, there's the structural piece of it, and then there's the,

610

00:38:14.940 --> 00:38:18.960

uh, I I think oftentimes people talk about their not being,

611

00:38:19.980 --> 00:38:24.090

uh, uh, enough resources,

612

00:38:24.580 --> 00:38:29.410

affordable resources for them to access mental healthcare is

613

00:38:29.870 --> 00:38:34.810

in many cases exorbitantly expensive. You know,

614

00:38:35.100 --> 00:38:39.520

in Vancouver, for example, going to see a counselor,

615

00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:44.290

uh, can be about, can set you back, uh,

616

00:38:44.820 --> 00:38:48.770

about 130, $150, uh,

617

00:38:49.150 --> 00:38:53.010

per 50 minutes session. And if you want 70 minutes,

618

00:38:53.120 --> 00:38:57.130

that gets to closer to about 170, $180.

619

00:38:58.070 --> 00:39:02.730

Uh, and clinical psychologists are even more expensive and, uh,

620

00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:06.690

psychiatrists are few and far between as well.

621

00:39:07.110 --> 00:39:12.050

And so then you need to go through referral processes with your family physician

622

00:39:12.430 --> 00:39:13.970

And so just,

623

00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:18.290

there's not good enough accessibility of, uh,

624

00:39:18.290 --> 00:39:22.690

mental health resources for people to be able to talk

625

00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:25.090

through things. And, you know,

626

00:39:25.090 --> 00:39:28.890

that kind of talk therapy psychotherapy is a long-term process.

627

00:39:30.250 --> 00:39:32.650

And, um, it's, it's,

628

00:39:32.720 --> 00:39:37.610

it's one of those things where you need to sink more money into it before you

629

00:39:37.610 --> 00:39:40.450

can actually get better. Right? Because if, let's say we even need,

630

00:39:40.450 --> 00:39:44.050

let's say five sessions, which is a very conservative estimate,

631

00:39:44.350 --> 00:39:48.050

you need five sessions that you're already sinking always a grand into,

632

00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:50.530

into counseling. Uh,

633

00:39:51.560 --> 00:39:53.620

and not a lot of people have that kind of money.

634

00:39:54.240 --> 00:39:58.020

Not a lot of insurance policies cover, uh, psychotherapy.

635

00:39:58.680 --> 00:40:02.700

And even when they do cover psychotherapy, they will cover, let's say,

636

00:40:02.970 --> 00:40:06.020

will cover about a thousand dollars or maybe $1,200.

637

00:40:06.680 --> 00:40:11.160

And that is not really enough for long-term

638

00:40:11.270 --> 00:40:14.920

sustainable kind of, um, uh, kind of recovery.

639

00:40:15.460 --> 00:40:17.240

And people will often talk about how, oh yeah,

640

00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:20.640

I used to go to this therapist and better now I've stopped.

641

00:40:20.980 --> 00:40:23.280

And then at some point they'll go, oh my God, I'm relapsing.

642

00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:28.080

I need to go talk to my therapist again right now. And, and so, uh,

643

00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:28.600

I,

644

00:40:28.600 --> 00:40:32.520

I think it's important to recognize that it's possible for people to lead full

645

00:40:32.620 --> 00:40:37.320

and, uh, fulfilling lives as long as they have the right support,

646

00:40:37.790 --> 00:40:42.520

whether they have genetic bases or not, that's almost irrelevant here.

647

00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:44.760

Uh, and, you know,

648

00:40:45.040 --> 00:40:49.370

people can also do a mix of pharmacologic,

649

00:40:49.370 --> 00:40:53.970

pharmacotherapy and psychotherapy. Whatever works for them, that's totally fine.

650

00:40:54.430 --> 00:40:58.810

But what we need is, uh, for there to be more,

651

00:40:59.750 --> 00:41:03.250

uh, compassionate social policies, uh, around,

652

00:41:04.550 --> 00:41:08.770

uh, around healthcare support and mental healthcare support in particular.

653

00:41:09.590 --> 00:41:14.090

[Nolan] I completely agree. [Ben] Yeah. So I, I think that, that, that helps,

654

00:41:14.090 --> 00:41:19.050

that would help with really anyone who does actually have that kind of,

655

00:41:19.230 --> 00:41:19.610

or they,

656

00:41:19.610 --> 00:41:24.090

they think that they have that gene that codes for depression for which their

657

00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:28.410

none really exists. There's no such thing as I have the depression gene. Um,

658

00:41:28.830 --> 00:41:33.130

but people assume that that's the case for themselves anyway, and become very,

659

00:41:33.540 --> 00:41:37.960

uh, pessimistic and as you're saying fatalistic about the outlook. Uh,

660

00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:42.160

but I think so much of that becomes a matter of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

661

00:41:42.250 --> 00:41:44.800

Right. If you don't think that you're able to get better,

662

00:41:45.100 --> 00:41:48.800

you're less likely to seek help. And if you're less likely to seek help,

663

00:41:48.990 --> 00:41:51.080

then you're not going to get better. Um.

664

00:41:51.200 --> 00:41:52.040

[Nolan] Definitely we can,</v>

665

00:41:52.140 --> 00:41:56.600

and you're talking about in Canada where it's less taboo than in many other

666

00:41:56.600 --> 00:41:58.320

countries. Right.

667

00:41:58.460 --> 00:42:02.600

Now I'm also wondering what you brought up about the, the work hours.

668

00:42:03.860 --> 00:42:08.280

I'm on the same page. I I agree, but how WEIRD is the research here?

669

00:42:08.670 --> 00:42:11.840

Because I wonder if it would have a different effect, let's say,

670

00:42:11.890 --> 00:42:15.200

let's say in China, because I teach a lot of Chinese students

671

00:42:15.200 --> 00:42:19.880

They work way harder [laughter] than Western students. They have way longer hours.

672

00:42:20.190 --> 00:42:23.400

Yeah. And of course, I don't know what they're actually feeling,

673

00:42:24.020 --> 00:42:26.280

but just from how they behave in class,

674

00:42:26.430 --> 00:42:30.720

they seem so much more positive and, um,

675

00:42:31.090 --> 00:42:35.000

happy [laughter] to be honest. Yeah. Than many of my Western students. Yeah.

676

00:42:35.140 --> 00:42:38.960

And they're working way harder and longer. Yeah. Yeah.

677

00:42:39.100 --> 00:42:43.800

So do you think that the shorter work hours would have the same effect in that

678

00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:45.480

culture? Or would it —

679

00:42:46.160 --> 00:42:50.320

[Ben] I think it would, um, and I say this primarily because I, I, you're right,</v>

680

00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:54.040

a lot of that, a lot of that research is coming from a lot of WEIRD places.

681

00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:58.200

But there's also some research coming out of Japan as well where there is a very

682

00:42:58.200 --> 00:43:03.160

similar kind of overworking culture. Uh, and, and, and, you know,

683

00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:07.280

changing also similarly changing that work. I think most recently it was,

684

00:43:07.300 --> 00:43:12.240

it might've been Microsoft in Japan that might've experimented with a four day

685

00:43:12.240 --> 00:43:14.760

work week, can't remember exactly which company it was.

686

00:43:15.030 --> 00:43:19.520

They experimented with a four day work week and they were also finding

687

00:43:19.520 --> 00:43:24.000

similar boosts in wellbeing and Okay. Boosts in productivity as well,

688

00:43:24.330 --> 00:43:27.520

where they're more productive working four days than they were productive

689

00:43:27.520 --> 00:43:29.000

working five days. Yeah. Um,

690

00:43:29.060 --> 00:43:32.120

and so I think it's one of those things where it's about working smarter and not

691

00:43:32.120 --> 00:43:34.880

working harder. Uh, and, and you know,

692

00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:37.600

giving people the space to recuperate and to recover.

693

00:43:38.380 --> 00:43:41.720

And I think what's important to consider is that the world is very different now

694

00:43:41.720 --> 00:43:45.160

than it might have been, let's say several decades ago. Right. I think, uh,

695

00:43:45.180 --> 00:43:49.800

the demand for things have become a lot more, uh, a lot more severe,

696

00:43:50.300 --> 00:43:54.480

um, and for more things to get done, uh, has,

697

00:43:54.620 --> 00:43:59.520

has become stronger now than it has in previous decades. And,

698

00:44:00.060 --> 00:44:00.750

uh, it's,

699

00:44:00.750 --> 00:44:05.560

it's hard to keep grinding day in and day out for so many

700

00:44:05.560 --> 00:44:08.680

days. And it's actually quite, uh,

701

00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:14.120

striking to me how much of an impact it has simply for having one

702

00:44:14.250 --> 00:44:16.920

extra day, uh, for people to be off.

703

00:44:17.550 --> 00:44:19.800

[Nolan] Yeah. Good to know. Oh, and just, uh,</v>

704

00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:24.280

anyone who's tuning into this show for their first time, weird means, western,

705

00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:27.720

educated, industrialized rich, and democratic.

706

00:44:28.070 --> 00:44:29.600

I've brought it up on the show many times,

707

00:44:29.620 --> 00:44:33.030

but if it's your first time tuning in, that's how we're using the word weird.

708

00:44:33.070 --> 00:44:33.430

Yeah.

709

00:44:33.430 --> 00:44:33.980

[Ben] Yeah.</v>

710

00:44:33.980 --> 00:44:36.040

[Nolan] Uh, just, yeah. [laughter]Um,</v>

711

00:44:36.460 --> 00:44:41.280

now this ties into some of your other expertise sleep, right. Um,

712

00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:42.040

having a little,

713

00:44:42.040 --> 00:44:46.000

a little bit more time off means you can sleep a little bit more recover. Yeah.

714

00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:51.700

Now, um, just so people have a little bit of a basis here,

715

00:44:51.700 --> 00:44:54.780

when we're talking about sleep, we've got the four stages.

716

00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:58.700

And I think in a lot of the mainstream thoughts about sleep,

717

00:44:58.940 --> 00:45:01.500

everyone always talks about rem, oh, if you need rem sleep,

718

00:45:01.500 --> 00:45:03.460

what about the REM sleep? Uh,

719

00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:08.860

but really N3 is one of the most important stages of sleep when it

720

00:45:08.860 --> 00:45:12.780

comes to muscle recovery, um, aiding in your memory. Um,

721

00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:16.540

so just so everyone's kinda on the same page, can you just quickly go over the,

722

00:45:16.640 --> 00:45:17.820

the stages of sleep?

723

00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:22.300

[Ben] Uh, I'm not the best person to go over the stage to sleep here, actually.</v>

724

00:45:22.890 --> 00:45:23.580

[Nolan] Okay. Yeah.</v>

725

00:45:23.580 --> 00:45:27.420

[Ben] Dr. Heine probably is, I think what we, we are doing, uh,</v>

726

00:45:27.420 --> 00:45:32.380

we were primarily talking about, um, or we were primarily looking at, uh,

727

00:45:32.860 --> 00:45:36.380

cultural differences in what sleep really means, uh,

728

00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:40.140

to people and, and, and, and, uh,

729

00:45:40.170 --> 00:45:43.860

what are the effects of, and the cultural differences, interestingly,

730

00:45:44.040 --> 00:45:47.980

are the effects of sleep deprivation or what we would define as sleep

731

00:45:47.980 --> 00:45:49.580

deprivation in, in different places.

732

00:45:50.710 --> 00:45:52.610

[Nolan] Oh, okay. So can you tell us a little bit about that?</v>

733

00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:58.300

[Ben] Yeah. So, uh, I think we often have this, um,</v>

734

00:45:58.490 --> 00:46:03.140

have this assumption that we need eight hours of continuous sleep, uh,

735

00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:08.260

as being, as being ideal to, for us to be high to,

736

00:46:08.260 --> 00:46:11.060

to be optimally functional. And ya, Nolan,

737

00:46:11.060 --> 00:46:15.860

you would've learned about this in my class as well, um, where that,

738

00:46:15.860 --> 00:46:20.300

that kind of assumption really didn't come about until, uh,

739

00:46:20.330 --> 00:46:24.140

several decades ago. Um, uh,

740

00:46:24.140 --> 00:46:26.980

because prior to that, uh,

741

00:46:26.980 --> 00:46:31.260

and certainly prior to industrialization and prior to having

742

00:46:32.220 --> 00:46:34.740

reliable artificial lighting, uh,

743

00:46:35.240 --> 00:46:38.260

people used to sleep in two phases.

744

00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:43.140

Humans oftentimes have this biphasic sleep where people would sleep

745

00:46:43.700 --> 00:46:48.660

sometime around dusk and they wake up in the middle of the night and then go to

746

00:46:48.660 --> 00:46:53.250

sleep again, and then wake up around dawn. Uh, and so it,

747

00:46:53.350 --> 00:46:56.570

if we were to look at, uh, historical data,

748

00:46:56.910 --> 00:47:00.690

we actually see a lot of people waking up in the middle of the night and then

749

00:47:00.690 --> 00:47:01.090

they're,

750

00:47:01.090 --> 00:47:04.050

they're engaging in different kinds of activities and they'll note down in

751

00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:08.970

their, in their diary about being in this like, phase in between the two sleeps.

752

00:47:09.590 --> 00:47:12.370

Uh, and then they'll, and then they'll go back to sleep afterwards.

753

00:47:12.470 --> 00:47:16.330

And that's actually quite common. Uh, and, uh,

754

00:47:16.350 --> 00:47:20.650

if we also look at, you know, different, uh, subsistence cultures,

755

00:47:20.650 --> 00:47:25.260

we also see similar kinds of sleep behaviors as well. And,

756

00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:28.860

uh, it really didn't seem to be until, uh,

757

00:47:28.860 --> 00:47:33.240

the advent of artificial lighting that this, that, that our sleeping,

758

00:47:33.240 --> 00:47:38.240

sleeping patterns started shifting, uh, into something that was more of a,

759

00:47:38.560 --> 00:47:43.400

a consolidated chunk at night and staying awake, uh,

760

00:47:44.140 --> 00:47:49.000

in later into the night, uh, as well. Uh, and then,

761

00:47:50.100 --> 00:47:54.080

uh, and, and, and then, you know, in thinking about cultural differences in,

762

00:47:54.180 --> 00:47:55.320

in what sleep means,

763

00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:59.120

what's really interesting is it seems to be the case that different cultural

764

00:47:59.120 --> 00:48:01.920

groups have different ideas about what,

765

00:48:03.140 --> 00:48:05.960

how much sleep people are supposed to have. Uh,

766

00:48:06.620 --> 00:48:11.200

and people from different cultures also have different beliefs about

767

00:48:12.020 --> 00:48:16.320

the relation between sleep and health. So for example, in our research,

768

00:48:17.100 --> 00:48:18.680

uh, we found that

769

00:48:20.190 --> 00:48:24.550

Japanese participants idealized a less amount, a lower amount of sleep,

770

00:48:25.090 --> 00:48:25.670

people.

771

00:48:25.670 --> 00:48:28.270

[Nolan] From Singapore and Japan sleep the least,</v>

772

00:48:28.490 --> 00:48:32.070

and then people from New Zealand and the Netherlands sleep the most.

773

00:48:32.420 --> 00:48:36.670

[Ben] Yeah. And sometimes US is also probably some, uh, up, up there as well.</v>

774

00:48:37.530 --> 00:48:39.430

Uh, so, uh, in, for our,

775

00:48:39.430 --> 00:48:43.150

in our study participants from Japan idealize sort of like a

776

00:48:44.670 --> 00:48:48.170

six and a half, seven hours of sleep. Uh,

777

00:48:48.680 --> 00:48:51.970

whereas people in Canada were, uh,

778

00:48:52.040 --> 00:48:56.890

were idealizing around seven and a half to eight hours of sleep. So, uh,

779

00:48:56.890 --> 00:49:01.210

quite a sort of a stark contrast, uh, between, between these different groups.

780

00:49:01.590 --> 00:49:06.130

And then we are also finding that people in Japan were,

781

00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:08.080

they,

782

00:49:08.080 --> 00:49:13.010

they tended to expect a much weaker co connection between sleep and

783

00:49:13.010 --> 00:49:16.380

health. Right. So we asked people, um,

784

00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:19.020

on a scale of negative two to positive two, right.

785

00:49:19.460 --> 00:49:23.900

Negative two would be expecting that there is a strong negative correlation

786

00:49:23.900 --> 00:49:26.180

between sleep and health. In other words,

787

00:49:26.810 --> 00:49:31.380

more sleep associated with very poor health. Uh, and,

788

00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:36.740

and then positive too is associating a lot of sleep with very

789

00:49:37.100 --> 00:49:41.070

positive health. And uh, what we found was that people in North America,

790

00:49:41.070 --> 00:49:44.030

people in the, in, in Canada in particular, uh,

791

00:49:44.060 --> 00:49:48.630

were expecting a much more positive connection between sleep and health.

792

00:49:49.180 --> 00:49:52.390

Whereas for the Japanese participants, uh,

793

00:49:52.390 --> 00:49:56.430

their response was closer to between a one and a zero.

794

00:49:56.610 --> 00:49:58.910

So zero we defined it as,

795

00:49:59.250 --> 00:50:04.070

we defined it to the participants as no connection between sleep and health.

796

00:50:04.450 --> 00:50:09.030

And so they were somewhere between the no connection to a very weak,

797

00:50:09.430 --> 00:50:12.270

positive connection certainly didn't see, uh,

798

00:50:12.270 --> 00:50:17.030

the same kinds of necessity or the benefits or the importance of sleep,

799

00:50:17.530 --> 00:50:21.590

uh, for their health compared to people from, uh, from Canada.

800

00:50:22.610 --> 00:50:25.910

And so we're getting this really interesting thing where not only are people

801

00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:28.440

idealizing a less amount of sleep,

802

00:50:28.900 --> 00:50:33.720

not only are they actually getting less sleep, but they're also, uh,

803

00:50:33.950 --> 00:50:38.520

have expressing a very different set of cultural beliefs about the connection

804

00:50:38.520 --> 00:50:40.840

between sleep and health as well.

805

00:50:42.040 --> 00:50:45.740

[Nolan] Now, does it have any positive, positive effects for them? Like,</v>

806

00:50:45.740 --> 00:50:50.740

are they able to handle sleep deprivation in a different way? Are they [laughter]?

807

00:50:51.050 --> 00:50:52.500

[Ben] Yeah, that's a good question. So.</v>

808

00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:55.700

[Nolan] Are there fewer, I wonder about like, especially car accidents.</v>

809

00:50:55.700 --> 00:50:57.380

Cause that's a big one right? Is.

810

00:50:58.580 --> 00:51:00.550

[Ben] Yeah. As a function of sleep deprivation</v>

811

00:51:00.550 --> 00:51:04.870

we see greater higher level of spike in, in, in, in, uh,

812

00:51:04.890 --> 00:51:09.310

in car accidents in North America when we do the daylight savings and we

813

00:51:11.330 --> 00:51:16.140

spring forward an hour. Yeah. Um, and people lose an hour of sleep often.

814

00:51:16.560 --> 00:51:19.980

And, and, and then we see, we see more car accidents the next day,

815

00:51:19.980 --> 00:51:23.020

literally the next day. Uh, yeah, I haven't looked,

816

00:51:23.080 --> 00:51:26.220

we haven't looked at car accident data. We've been,

817

00:51:26.240 --> 00:51:29.340

we had been looking at more of a course, uh,

818

00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:35.220

course measure of physical symptoms and physical ailments to see

819

00:51:35.220 --> 00:51:39.060

whether or not people in Japan were reporting more problematic, uh,

820

00:51:39.260 --> 00:51:43.020

physical ailments. And we didn't seem to get that either.

821

00:51:43.200 --> 00:51:47.820

Uh, so, uh, to tell you a bit about the, the design of the study that we did,

822

00:51:48.120 --> 00:51:53.070

we asked people to wear sleep watches. Um, yeah.

823

00:51:53.070 --> 00:51:56.840

So we, we, uh, yeah.

824

00:51:56.840 --> 00:52:01.650

So we asked people to wear sleep watches and, uh, the,

825

00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:06.610

that that watch measures when they sleep, estimates when they sleep,

826

00:52:06.610 --> 00:52:09.650

which is sort of like what it, it, it, it, it,

827

00:52:09.650 --> 00:52:11.930

it's basically sort of like what a Fitbit does. Now.

828

00:52:11.990 --> 00:52:15.090

[Nolan] Um, I was gonna ask these sleep watches that you're using in this study,</v>

829

00:52:15.190 --> 00:52:19.050

is this the same that they're selling to the mainstream market where it

830

00:52:19.050 --> 00:52:24.010

essentially just measures your movement to see if you're awake or not? Yeah.

831

00:52:24.010 --> 00:52:24.290

Yeah.

832

00:52:24.290 --> 00:52:26.050

[Ben] Okay. Basically, that's basically it. And, and.</v>

833

00:52:26.190 --> 00:52:30.050

[Nolan] Is that good enough to know whether you're in a deep sleep or not? Cause I've,</v>

834

00:52:30.050 --> 00:52:31.090

I've always wondered that, like,

835

00:52:31.090 --> 00:52:33.930

I thought about getting the app once to see if it like, measures my sleep,

836

00:52:33.930 --> 00:52:36.060

but then I thought, yeah, it,

837

00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:38.980

how much I moved doesn't necessarily mean that I'm in a,

838

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:40.540

in a deep sleep or does it.

839

00:52:41.160 --> 00:52:45.380

[Ben] Uh, it's, it's supposed to, it it's supposed to measure. So I,</v>

840

00:52:45.380 --> 00:52:47.660

I'll I'll say this, um, uh,

841

00:52:48.020 --> 00:52:52.820

people's estimations of when they sleep is actually pretty, uh,

842

00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:57.020

it matches up pretty well with when the sleep watches estimate that they are

843

00:52:57.020 --> 00:53:00.980

sleeping. Uh, and you know, when people are in a deep sleep,

844

00:53:00.980 --> 00:53:04.860

they generally tend to not move. Uh, and,

845

00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:08.560

and so when there's a lot of the,

846

00:53:08.780 --> 00:53:12.000

the watch will measure what are referred to as awakenings.

847

00:53:13.080 --> 00:53:14.980

And so it will, so,

848

00:53:14.980 --> 00:53:18.940

so people over the night will have a lot of these mini awakenings that they are

849

00:53:18.940 --> 00:53:23.500

not aware of oftentimes. Uh, and and that's, that's when you're, you're,

850

00:53:23.500 --> 00:53:28.240

you might have jerk movement or you might, uh, uh, you might have a,

851

00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:33.040

a a small series of, of movements in your, in your, in your hand or in your arm.

852

00:53:33.460 --> 00:53:37.560

So that's what the, the, the act, the Actigraphy watch is picking up on.

853

00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:42.920

Um, and, and generally it's a pretty decent measure of, of sleep,

854

00:53:43.340 --> 00:53:47.200

uh, and it's been used by sleep researchers for a long time now. Uh,

855

00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:52.080

but what our actigraphy watch was also able to do was to send a beep every

856

00:53:52.350 --> 00:53:56.090

certain number of hours to ask them, uh,

857

00:53:56.150 --> 00:53:57.370

how sleepy are you right now.

858

00:53:57.370 --> 00:54:00.730

And then they'll be asked to indicate on the sleep watch on a scale of like zero

859

00:54:00.730 --> 00:54:03.570

to three, I can't remember exactly anymore. It's been a while, uh,

860

00:54:03.570 --> 00:54:05.210

to indicate their level of sleepiness.

861

00:54:05.670 --> 00:54:08.170

And we find that for the Japanese participants,

862

00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:13.770

despite sleeping less, they weren't, uh,

863

00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:17.890

reporting being any less sleepy. Um, in fact,

864

00:54:18.100 --> 00:54:22.690

sleepiness was, uh, higher among, uh,

865

00:54:23.050 --> 00:54:26.570

Canadian participants, uh, compared to Japanese participants.

866

00:54:26.790 --> 00:54:28.090

So they were sleeping less,

867

00:54:28.640 --> 00:54:32.610

they were expecting a weaker connection between sleep and health.

868

00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:36.690

They were idealizing a shorter amount of sleep. Uh,

869

00:54:36.870 --> 00:54:40.370

and they were, they didn't seem to be,

870

00:54:40.430 --> 00:54:43.130

at least we weren't able to correlate, uh,

871

00:54:43.130 --> 00:54:47.250

the same kind of physical ailments associated with having less sleep.

872

00:54:47.990 --> 00:54:51.930

And we also weren't seeing, um,

873

00:54:53.110 --> 00:54:57.730

the, the, the any sort of a notable increase in, in, in,

874

00:54:57.830 --> 00:55:02.330

in self-rated sleepiness associated with them. I think.

875

00:55:02.330 --> 00:55:04.130

[Nolan] It's very important to note where you said you,</v>

876

00:55:04.150 --> 00:55:07.050

you couldn't correlate the physical ailments. Cuz that's what I,

877

00:55:07.250 --> 00:55:08.450

I jumped to right away. I was like,

878

00:55:08.450 --> 00:55:12.090

maybe they're just reporting this because in their culture, it's,

879

00:55:12.350 --> 00:55:15.970

it shows that you're tough, that you're not, you can handle no sleep. Right?

880

00:55:16.450 --> 00:55:18.450

Like, I'm not sleepy. Um, but then yeah,

881

00:55:18.450 --> 00:55:21.330

if you measure this with the ailments as well, that's,

882

00:55:21.350 --> 00:55:22.250

that's really interesting.

883

00:55:22.250 --> 00:55:24.770

[Ben] Yeah. So, so we were measuring things like, like headaches.</v>

884

00:55:24.770 --> 00:55:29.250

We were measuring things like, like coughing, um, dizziness, you know,

885

00:55:29.430 --> 00:55:31.290

all these kinds of things. We’re asking them, you know,

886

00:55:31.290 --> 00:55:35.410

on an for this past week that you were wearing this watch for, you know,

887

00:55:35.670 --> 00:55:37.530

how much did you feel these different kind of symptoms.

888

00:55:37.530 --> 00:55:38.770

And we weren't getting a lot of,

889

00:55:38.870 --> 00:55:42.930

of traction and a lot of differences from those. Uh, I think what, uh, Dr.

890

00:55:43.350 --> 00:55:46.810

Heine is the, uh, is the, the,

891

00:55:46.910 --> 00:55:51.010

the sort of the other another faculty member that you spoke to before, uh,

892

00:55:51.070 --> 00:55:54.490

on this, on this project. And, uh,

893

00:55:54.930 --> 00:55:59.610

I think what he has been thinking about is the idea that, uh,

894

00:55:59.640 --> 00:56:04.500

it's not so much the, I mean, yes, people objectively need a,

895

00:56:04.660 --> 00:56:07.290

a, a minimum amount of sleep. Um,

896

00:56:08.370 --> 00:56:12.190

so like perpetually going for two to three hours is probably not the healthiest

897

00:56:12.430 --> 00:56:16.990

thing for, for anyone really. Uh, but beyond a certain amount,

898

00:56:17.060 --> 00:56:21.510

there's a certain level of, of, of cultural variability, uh,

899

00:56:21.580 --> 00:56:25.400

here where people might be more affected by

900

00:56:26.610 --> 00:56:31.340

perceptions of their sleep based on their local ecology rather than,

901

00:56:32.080 --> 00:56:36.260

uh, some sort of universal expectations of sleep. What I mean,

902

00:56:36.260 --> 00:56:41.020

what we mean by that is that people from different cultures will have different

903

00:56:41.300 --> 00:56:43.940

expectations about sleep. And you need to sleep for six hours,

904

00:56:43.940 --> 00:56:46.060

you need to sleep for nine hours, you need to sleep for eight hours, etcetera.

905

00:56:47.680 --> 00:56:51.100

So we expected what, what Dr. Heine and our,

906

00:56:51.160 --> 00:56:54.820

the rest of our group was expecting was that it's not,

907

00:56:55.330 --> 00:56:59.180

it's not the total amount of hours that you sleep that's, that's the problem.

908

00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:00.600

Um,

909

00:57:00.600 --> 00:57:05.460

it is your amount of sleep relative to what your

910

00:57:05.460 --> 00:57:10.020

culture expects you to sleep. That is a bigger predictor of, of,

911

00:57:10.040 --> 00:57:11.620

of problems. Um,

912

00:57:12.080 --> 00:57:16.780

and we have data right now from one study that seems to be

913

00:57:17.170 --> 00:57:20.940

panning out, that kind of hypothesis. Um,

914

00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:23.980

one of our students, uh,

915

00:57:24.590 --> 00:57:27.940

who's been really doing a lot of great work, uh,

916

00:57:28.110 --> 00:57:31.260

doing the analysis for that research recently presented this at our

917

00:57:31.260 --> 00:57:35.940

undergraduate conference in our, in our department. And, um, yeah,

918

00:57:36.280 --> 00:57:39.700

he was showing some data showing how it's, uh,

919

00:57:40.240 --> 00:57:44.480

cross-culturally we don't, we are, we're not able to see this.

920

00:57:44.610 --> 00:57:48.480

We're not able to see that connection between health and sleep hours,

921

00:57:49.060 --> 00:57:53.480

but within the country they're able to see, um, uh,

922

00:57:53.480 --> 00:57:58.360

the connection between sleep and, and, and, uh, and and health.

923

00:57:58.900 --> 00:58:01.200

And so that, that I think is,

924

00:58:01.210 --> 00:58:05.400

shows the immense importance that culture has

925

00:58:06.020 --> 00:58:11.000

on even something as biological, fundamentally biological as sleep.

926

00:58:11.780 --> 00:58:16.670

[Nolan] That, that's a, uh, fantastic. Now we're coming up on an hour here, so it's,</v>

927

00:58:16.670 --> 00:58:18.630

I think it's a pretty good, uh, place to end it,

928

00:58:18.650 --> 00:58:23.030

but I would just like to say anecdotally, anecdotal [laughter] on an anecdote, I,

929

00:58:23.270 --> 00:58:27.590

I can say that it's the same here in Spain when I first came here about Siesta

930

00:58:27.590 --> 00:58:28.790

culture. Um,

931

00:58:28.950 --> 00:58:32.070

I noticed that everyone doesn't actually sleep during Siesta.

932

00:58:32.070 --> 00:58:36.950

They usually watch tv. Yeah. Uh, maybe read or just like, just lay in bed. 

933

00:58:37.010 --> 00:58:39.590

And I was like, well, that, that's no good. No. Like for, I I,

934

00:58:39.750 --> 00:58:40.830

I took sleep psychology,

935

00:58:41.130 --> 00:58:45.310

you need at least 45 minutes to get an additional seven hours of rcharge.

936

00:58:45.380 --> 00:58:46.110

Yeah. Or you know,

937

00:58:46.110 --> 00:58:49.790

you wanna have a full cycle of an hour and a half to actually have the benefits

938

00:58:49.790 --> 00:58:52.550

of sleep. But it doesn't seem like that at all. And,

939

00:58:52.890 --> 00:58:54.750

and people really self-report that too.

940

00:58:54.750 --> 00:58:59.030

If they just have that hour just to lay back and relax

941

00:58:59.060 --> 00:59:03.590

they feel fully recharged to then stay up till 12 at night and then wake up at

942

00:59:03.610 --> 00:59:05.830

six, which is really common here. Yeah.

943

00:59:06.020 --> 00:59:09.390

[Ben] Yeah. And I think it's the really highlights, you know,</v>

944

00:59:09.390 --> 00:59:14.230

oftentimes people assume that biological things exist outside the realm

945

00:59:14.290 --> 00:59:18.870

of, of, of, of, of social environments and culture. That's not the case.

946

00:59:19.210 --> 00:59:22.840

Um, and if there's anything that I've learned from, uh,

947

00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:24.240

studying culture psychology,

948

00:59:25.070 --> 00:59:29.920

it's how ingrained culture is in our biology and

949

00:59:29.920 --> 00:59:33.600

how oftentimes we can't tease apart the two, uh,

950

00:59:33.860 --> 00:59:35.680

as easily as we might assume.

951

00:59:36.170 --> 00:59:37.720

[Nolan] Definitely. Well, Ben,</v>

952

00:59:37.720 --> 00:59:40.520

I think that's an excellent place to end the episode for today.

953

00:59:40.530 --> 00:59:42.560

Thank you so much for coming on the show.

954

00:59:42.560 --> 00:59:46.680

It was pleasure seeing you again and I really appreciate it. Again, listeners,

955

00:59:46.680 --> 00:59:48.000

if you wanna support the show,

956

00:59:48.460 --> 00:59:52.560

go to bornwithoutborders.substack.com.

957

00:59:52.720 --> 00:59:56.680

I just changed over my website cuz the community is a bit stronger there. Um,

958

00:59:56.870 --> 01:00:01.280

anyways, I hope you tune in next time. There's a new episode every Tuesday.